Disobedience. Disobedience. Ted had left Sandy; I was living in sin with Ted, which Peggy didnt seem to mind at all, as she liked me a lot. I grew up with the Mojaves, going to school with them. He came around when something bad happened to us. Notleys work is famously heterogeneous, but its possible to see a gradual shift in her work, beginning in the mid-eighties, away from the New York Schools emphasis on ordinary detail and the surfaces of daily city life. If we compare them with painting, they work like the zips in Newmans painting. I mean sometimes theres a lot of garbage but not usable garbage and so it takes me a long time to get anything made. White Phosphorus The artist Rudy Burckhardt once wrote that Notley may be "our present-day Homer." NOTLEY, Alice. The Indians said: No, we wont do it, but we will send people to teach them to you. The tribes then would send the people to Prescott, and every year they would teach these businessmen dances. What if youre not sure what kind of person you are? The sense of something escaping is well illustrated by your poem, Where Leftover Misery Goes, among others. Its flowing world is populated by characters who seem to personify indeterminate pronouns (like a shaman named Qui) and theres a general defiance of set categories: and if one who renews refuses / gender? In a lecture titled Thinking and Poetry, Notley underscores the deep difficulty of following ones own direction: I find being a poet something that must start again all the time; Im 122DR: Anne Waldman was an important figure with the [St. Marks] poetry project. New York: Columbia Records, 1989. But every time he quoted somebody he misquoted him or her without even knowing it, so he always made the texture his own. 82AN: Its not a dance; its a pattern of sounds: its in my voice which I think is sometimes better than singing, when I say the poems. In her essay The Poetics of Disobedience, Notley writes, I've been trying to train myself for thirty or forty years not to believe anything anyone tells me. In this apocalyptic, darkly funny, and, indeed, gutsy poem from Songs and Stories of the Ghouls (2011), Notley indicts logic itselfthe so-called common sense that reduces poetry to gender and experience to the known and erases whole cities in the whirlwind of war. AN: We were all doing them. When expanded it provides a list of search options that will switch the search inputs to match the current selection. 11It was a collaboration of sorts, though I generally do not collaborate; I really hate it. I wrote a poem about it in. WILLIAMs, William Carlos. Alma, or The Dead Women. OHaras insouciance has made his work popularan antidote to the high seriousness that poetry sometimes invokes to prove its worth. It seemed that people like Joe Brainard were doing important, high-art collages and we could follow along without any pretention to be creating masterpieces. In spring 2001, she received an award from the American Academy of Arts and Letters and the Poetry Society of America's Shelley Memorial Award. DR: I wouldnt be able to take the journey if I couldnt hear the poem.. ALICE NOTLEY has been hailed as one of the United States's greatest living poets.She is the author of more than 25 books of poetry and the recipient of numerous awards, including, most recently . Alice Notley has become one of America's greatest living poets. Reason and Other Women. Ultimately, I am expressing a desire to run into the desert and get some space, the space everybody needs around themselves and unfortunately are not getting. I applied pressure so that the brokenness would have the shape I wanted; then I think I made the back part separately and decided to glue the fan on it. DR: Now I heard you say that the cadences for, AN: I actually listened to Monteverdi to get the cadences that were before, : particularly in White Phosphorus (1988) and at the end of Beginning with a Stain, . The first time I went there I was completely humiliated by the people working there. In the Pines, Montreal: Club Roll, 2012. Detroit was burning and poetry was on fire. When I was becoming a poet, folk music was popular; Bob Dylan was getting started; and he was that kind of magpie. Ive mostly dredged it all up, and I know how to get to it without dreaming. The Indians said: No, we wont do it, but we will send people to teach them to you. The tribes then would send the people to Prescott, and every year they would teach these businessmen dances. 59DR: With your interpolation of popular culture into epic poetry, I would expect you to be a household name here in France. My book Dsamre (1992) features Robert Desnos and uses patterns from the Lais of Marie de France. Life spilled out onto the street, colors whirled. But her writing exerts intense attraction. His zips are like obelisks; theyre like sculptures inside the paintings. In the case of John Ashbery, theres a poem called Syringa (1977) with an Orphean motif. In her earlier work, Notley often incorporated the speech of people around her, particularly her children (as in her masterpiece January). 118AN: It was definitely weird to get food stamps. These ideas are all very tangible, yet somewhat unconnected when conversed about and referred to. , Wesleyan University Press, 2006 (p.292-293), reproduced with permission of the author. That was one of the first things Ted [Berrigan] told me about John: he kept a list of titles, like Civilization and Its Discontents, then he would decide, Ah, that would be a great title for a poem, and then later he would check his list and pull that title out. NOTLEY, Alice. Somewhere, I have a photo of my father with a snake in his mouth and every year that he did it, he got a little tattoo of a star on his hand; and my mother danced the year she was pregnant with me the Hopi Corn Maidens Dance, and she taught me the song later, and my father taught me the chant for the Apache Dog Dance. I felt I knew what the cry house was, and had ideas about it: I knew how to use regional things. Middletown, CT: Wesleyan University Press, 2006. Notleys ceaseless productivity hints at a method counter to the heavy emphasis on, and even fetishization of, craft that forms the cornerstone of poetrys increasing professionalization. Among the most powerful moments in her work are the ones marked by her teaching poetry workshops in New York and her self-publishing the book, Parts of a Wedding (1986). [10] Some of Notley's most famous engagements with the poetry community while in NYC were her workshops at the Poetry Project at St. Mark's Church, which were attended by dozens of young poets including Bob Holman, Patricia Spears Jones, Steve Carey, and Susie Timmons. NOTLEY, Alice. When I was becoming a poet, folk music was popular; Bob Dylan was getting started; and he was that kind of magpie. His poems have appeared (or are forthcoming) in ZYZZYVA, Poetry Northwest, and Sycamore Review. Notley gave birth to their first son, Anselm Berrigan, named after Anselm Hollo, in 1972, as well. A passage from For the Ride (2020), by Alice Notley. For instance this collage that you put on the cover of. Paris: Gallimard, Bibliothque de La Pliade, 1988, p. 643-753. Those are the ones Im working on right now, which have to do with my poetry of the moment. damn whether they eat or not. I just sat in here and wrote about Allen and the international aspect of his work. from Barnard College in 1967 and an M.F.A. (2006). New York: Penguin Books, 1977. Photograph by Nigel Beale / The Biblio File. Instead, she gravitated increasingly toward archetype and mytha search for primordial language bubbling under the surface. It so happens that there are many of those trees, syringas, in Rochester, NY, where hes from. Courtesy of Alice Notley, re-photographed by Daesong Kim, April 2018. He was my political education really. 5Alice Notley is an extraordinary reader of her own work, which, in the last year, she has read in the U.S.A. (Providence, R.I., and Brooklyn, N.Y.), in the U.K. (Birmingham), and in France (The Pompidou Center, Paris). and Laurence B. HOLLAND. In this emblematic early piece, the text spills across the page. One knows ithere, not chains,posh garlands. Death, grief, and spirituality were terrain that the fast talk of New York School poetics hadnt fully engaged; so, too, was the political and feminist consciousness growing in Notleys work. AN: You dont have to breathe between them. where you and Eileen Myles read together must count among the great New York School moments still on record. This guy is doing vinyl records of poets and hes done a series including one of me and one of Eileen [Myles]. Produced by Curtis Fox. The Prophet. How Spring Comes. Notleys latest collection, For the Ride, a sprawling book-length poem, continues her trajectory into the unknown: anything happens here / in the magic of ones chaos. With its mess of divergent voices, picture-poems, and eccentric locutions, the result is baffling, beautiful, and always fascinatingly Notley. 28DR: I think he interrupts the thought, but the thought he interrupts keeps going. In this Poem Talk podcast devoted to this poem, it is read as a sort of non-political political poem, bringing the personal into the public. To Annapurna or Mt. And the past & future & I born too. AN: When its around me, I take it in. Request a transcript here. [2], After Notley's graduation, she and Berrigan spent periods of time in New York City and Buffalo. Notley's work stands as a testament to how difficult it is to be truly individual. AN: To quote Jack Kerouac, avoid the authorities. If you have the talent you have to avoid them. MYLES, Eileen. Frank had a characteristic, manly idea of existing in the world despite what you might call his femininity, and I think that Ted understood it as something like being a Jimmy Cagney or something from the movies: Ted knew how to take that stance. Then I figured out how to write them, so they enter the text. 74AN: Well, you learn a lot from teaching, at the beginning. NOTLEY, Alice. We were all born in 1945, and despite a certain competitiveness at first, became good friends. She describes it as an immense act of rebellion against dominant social forces, against the fragmented forms of modern poetry, against the way a poem was supposed to look according to both past and contemporary practice. The narrator, Alette, finds herself in a feminist epic, on a subway, traveling deeper and deeper in the tunnels, into an underworld filled with caves and otherworldly characters. Flowery mantle. Homeric sacrifice? noise of darkness fear of, darkness now mantle of innocence King of his death now Home, Ive come home He said, Ive come home They were sacrificed for, nothing, for distant instants of thought All for your thinking, Illustration courtesy of Sophie Herxheimer, The Goddess Who Created This Passing World. Grin, laugh unbecomingLiving at the bottom of the water mayhave been obvious all the time. In fact, the strong memories of starting points, including the vegetation, you just evoked link you to your New York School entourage. The first time I went there I was completely humiliated by the people working there. 26DR: In her Paris Review interview (2015) she says that she learned from John Ashbery never to complete a thought, which is a rich idea. 53DR: The disturbing political and historical moment we are experiencing could disrupt many collective dreams. I learned everything from the variable foot from Asphodel, That Greeny Flower.. I grew up with the Mojaves, going to school with them. Its possible Im living in the apartment of someone who was taken away to the camps. AN: Yes, and that is effectively what the. 107DR: Lets see, arrive the exactitude of pitch the tune in words alone; thats In the Pines too. The others were like me, though Hispanic and black. New York: TPR. Or, as Notley puts it, the trick is to Try to get new language // closer to that of thought. In the middle section, which is in prose, there are three people: me, Medea, and Dido, my gripe being that she founded a city, Carthage. At a certain point I wrote them down every morning; sometimes I do it more than others. She wound up in a nursing home, the life and soul of the nursing home: a great Irish lady. At the moment, it feels like theres not much going on there; because its all going on at the surface actually. French poetry was aimless, became philosophical, though now there are some younger poets that are starting to put the concrete back in, but slowly; I discussed it with French poets a few years ago, who confirmed for me that French poetry became abstract out of trauma from World War II, the occupation, and everything, authors being too traumatized to speak concretely. Also in my poem Disobedience (2001), I got the title in a dream about him. I didnt know any French; I had no French when I came here, basically, in my late forties. New York: Penguin, 2001. Notley also thanks Tom Clark who would go on to re-publish the sonnet cycle in his anthology All Stars. The poetry community in Bolinas was particularly strong at the time, withJoanne Kyger,Philip Whalen,Bill Berkson,Robert Creeley, and Bobbie Louise Hawkins all among its residents. DR: Lets see, arrive the exactitude of pitch the tune in words alone; thats In the Pines too. 7Alice Notley: Im from the desert which I found intensely attractive as nature, and its my nature reallyI havent been back in six years but I love that nature. Ive always had trouble getting materials here. Pictures from Breughel and Other Poems and The Desert Music and Other Poems (1954): that book is fantastic; he caught the new line, which he refers to in one of his letters. Cars & the variously shod feet were born. The New Yorker may earn a portion of sales from products that are purchased through our site as part of our Affiliate Partnerships with retailers. Notley was born in Arizona and grew up in Needles, California. Alice Notley, Live in Seattle, Portland, WA: Fonograf Editions (Octopus Books), 2019. 55DR: There was a pop song in the 1960s by the Three Dog Night, Joy to the World, which went: If I was the King of the World, Id throw away all the cars, thus broadcasting the idea. There werent a lot of cacti where I lived, but there were a lot of bushes. Perhaps the greatest OHara disciple in this sense is the poet Alice Notley, who, in the course of forty-plus years and forty-plus books, has repeatedly cited OHara as an influence while following her own unconventional path. Sometimes I have in-between projects and that is a tough situation; because, I usually dont write as well then, indeed, I never quite know what to do at those moments. NOTLEY, Alice. Recent poems about pregnancy, birth, and being a mother. Produced by Curtis Fox. I would give a task often based on traditional forms, or I would get an idea for a subject; and sometimes I used Kenneths books, because he was writing all those books then about teaching in nursing homes and to groups of small children. Request a transcript here. Middletown, CT: Wesleyan University Press, 2011. focusing on the foot; and hes probably also aware of the foot when hes doing the short stanzas. She was educated in the Needles public schools, Barnard College, and The Writers Workshop, University of Iowa. On Facebook, New York: Scribner Poetry, 2001, p.120-124. She was in my workshop. 89DR: Right, thats a strong, colonizing streak in Western culture. It bears a dedication to James Schuyler and Anne and Fairfield Porter, who were also residing together on Long Island at the time. and Laurence B. HOLLAND. At Night the States Her first husband, Ted Berrigan, was an equally charismatic figure among an influential group of downtown poets. DR: Apart from what happens during the performance, can writing poetry be like a dance? I also have a vinyl record, its like one of those jazz albums. And that other one was something I just picked up from the sidewalk. That was written in the Food Stamp Office in 1985. I would like some help. Whereupon, she just totally melted. There's an unfinishedness. In 2015, she was awarded the Ruth Lilly Poetry Prize. Better to think of the poem as what Notley calls a bricolage, with hints of medieval allegory, jokey slang, strange jags of French. He would fly to Paris, find me, and we would have dinner; also, he had a group of Paris friends. David Reckford: Among the physical, cultural, and intellectual environments that have formed your particular sensitivity, there seems to be several strong and contrasting places. Its a reasonable question to ask about For the Ride, which begins with a challenge to the reader: Youll have to decipher whats going on, as it happens. Andrew Whiteman and Ariel Engle, whove done something mesmerizing; also, my son Eddie is both a poet and an indie musician: I know about some indie people from about 2000, not so much after that. Courtesy of Alice Notley, re-photographed by Daesong Kim, April 2018. New York: Penguin, 1996. He taught some writing: one writing class, and one civilization and literature class. One of the lines in that particular poem is actually straight from Dylan, which I finally just say: I know no one can sing the blues like blind Willie McTell. Id been quoting from the song all the way through in the whole poem. And with popularity comes influence: one thinks of the sunny romanticism and Instagram-readiness of Having a Coke with You (the more abstract, difficult side of OHaras work has yet to gain influencer status). 41DR: He has said that he started doing collages in his twenties and continued throughout his life. 17AN: Yes, they were the two Irish of the set. [citation needed]. AN: I met him once, Barnett Newman, right before he died. 70DR: Was the teaching of poetry workshops something that connected you to Kenneth Koch? I used to substitute teach for him, sometimes, at Brooklyn College. I mean sometimes theres a lot of garbage but not usable garbage and so it takes me a long time to get anything made. The poet and essayist talks about her newest essay collection Minor Feelings, waking Alice Notley, Al Filreis, Erica Kaufman, Joe Milutis, Zack Pieper. 13AN: He had no trust in his own ability to write things out, while he had faith in his ability to find things. DR: Right, thats a strong, colonizing streak in Western culture. You and Ted published it in your review, Chicago (1974). Education: Barnard College, New York, B.A. I thought that they were voices of dead French people, but they just came from everywhere; the voices came for that poem. Indeed, French poetry has had some weird times, where it got so abstract. They ran away into abstract poetry: that makes a lot of sense to me. Courtesy of Alice Notley, re-photographed by Daesong Kim, April 2018. She has long written in narrative and epic and genre-bending modes to discover new ways to explore the nature of the self and the social and cultural importance of disobedience. Pictures from Breughel and Other Poems. , Saint Marks Poetry Project, c.1980, courtesy of the Alice Notley, re-photographed by Daesong Kim. The book took its title from the address of their home on Long Island and was published by Berrigan's C Press. Mystery of Small Houses. The others were like me, though Hispanic and black. 24DR: But she came already with a great talent, right, she started out extremely strong. Notley moved frequently in her youth (e.g., San Francisco, Bolinas, London, Essex, Chicago) and eventually married the . 10When I was a young poet, I couldnt figure out what to title anything, and I discussed this with Ted, who said: You should write to Ron Padgett and get a list of titles, which I did; he just made up all these titles for me. , Montreal: Club Roll, 2012. Notley citesin parta reading by Robert Creeley as early inspiration for her writing more poetry. I dont know anything about French pop culture at all; Im necessarily estranged from American pop culture, but I do sometimes know whats going on in music. 75DR: Speaking of Anne Waldman somehow makes me think of the presence of Native Americans in your work. I had it for a long time and it started to break. El jugador controla a Alice durante todo el juego corriendo, saltando, esquivando y atacando. Notley and Berrigan joined an already active community of Chicago poets, including Paul Carroll, Paul Hoover, and Maxine Chernoff. This is typical of what happens when I make a collage. I had just been in the States. How, in your view, did humanity get itself in such a predicament? Notley came to prominence as a member of the second generation of the New York School of poetryalthough she has always denied being involved with the New York School or any specific movement in general. AN: Probably, I wouldnt dance, but Anne might. Alice Notley: That's the future. 106AN: Thats from In the Pines (2007). This is before the lost sacred corpus vision, someone says Look at my author photo. That piece is from a postcard of a painting of Notre-Dame and evil spirits flying out of it. Orpheus is a stand-in for poetry. After the workshop ended, Notley teamed up with students to print copies of their works on the mimeograph machine in the St. Mark's basement. 23AN: We were children then, basically. . DR: Well I think of Williams as a kind of Calder mobile waiting to enter into movement. I was her teacher, though Im not much older than she is, about four years older. The artist Rudy Burckhardt once. was influenced by my autobiographical book that almost won the Pulitzer Prize. Its probably Notleys best-known work, perhaps because its one of the easiest to follow. New York: Penguin, 1998. Ultimately, I am expressing a desire to run into the desert and get some space, the space everybody needs around themselves and unfortunately are not getting. New York: W.W. Norton & Company, 1979, p. 911-1772. She was born in Bisbee, Arizona and grew up in Needles, California. (1945) a couple of years ago because she was being bashed in the States again: they were underlining her Vichy connections in order to make her into a kind of villain, without any regard for how difficult it must have been: a lesbian living with another lesbian, in her sixties, in a country that wasnt her own country, Jewish, thus a prime candidate for the camps. Then I figured out how to write them, so they enter the text. Instead of second-guessing their style, we could talk about the way they handled the tasks. Her honors also include an Academy Award in Literature from the American Academy of Arts and Letters and the Shelley Memorial Award from the Poetry Society of America. Early on, I understood that was something you could enjoy doing out of folk music. AN: Virgil was just this poet and he had to contend with Augustus Caesar. Especially in the way that lucid means shining and bright. Early on, I understood that was something you could enjoy doing out of folk music. His zips are like obelisks; theyre like sculptures inside the paintings. Indeed, you are often spoken about as an engaged poet, like your late husband, Doug Oliver. 50AN: Well possiblyI take in a lot of things that I dont know about, or that I dont remember. Poems, articles, podcasts, and blog posts that explore womens history and womens rights. I was wondering if your poems that address completely despicable people might be a case of carrying the enemy on the shoulder. Notleys language is, as ever, mystifying: in lines fluid yet clipped, interior yet discursive, she turns the idea of independence inside out to discover its seams. As in her feminist epic The Descent of Alette, the quotation marks here both interrupt and sustain. 38AN: Would you like to see the real collage? New York: Granary Books, 2006. Vocabulaire politique et propagande dans une perspective transatlantique, Slavery on Screen / American Women Writers Abroad: 1849-1976, (Hi)stories of American Women: Writings and Re-writings / Call and Answer: Dialoguing the American West in France, Morphing Bodies: Strategies of Embodiment in Contemporary US Cultural Practices, Modernist Revolutions: American Poetry and the Paradigm of the New, The Poetics and Politics of Antiquity in the Long Nineteenth-Century / Exploiting Exploitation Cinema, The Voting Rights Act at 50 / Hidden in Plain Sight: Deep Time and American Literature, Aesthetics of Theory in the Modern Era and Beyond / Photographie documentaire, Revisiting the Gilded Age / Littrature et philosophie, Cartographies de l'Amrique/ Histoires d'esclaves, Le roman policier, littrature transatlantique / Maisons Hantes, Sport et socit / Animals and the American Imagination, Senses of the South / Rfrendums populaires, The Businessman as Artist / New American Voices, A digital resources portal for the humanities and social sciences, https://doi.org/10.4000/transatlantica.13862, http://journals.openedition.org/transatlantica/docannexe/image/13862/img-1.jpg, http://journals.openedition.org/transatlantica/docannexe/image/13862/img-2.jpg, http://journals.openedition.org/transatlantica/docannexe/image/13862/img-3.png, http://journals.openedition.org/transatlantica/docannexe/image/13862/img-4.png, http://journals.openedition.org/transatlantica/docannexe/image/13862/img-5.jpg, http://journals.openedition.org/transatlantica/docannexe/image/13862/img-6.jpg, http://journals.openedition.org/transatlantica/docannexe/image/13862/img-7.jpg, http://journals.openedition.org/transatlantica/docannexe/image/13862/img-8.jpg, Catalogue of 609 journals. 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